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I've got a killer headache, so I apologize if this is crabbier than usual, but it seems to me that certain members of fandom are holding Gwen/Rhys to a different standard than Jack/Ianto.

I refer to the infamous "pizza" line from Something Borrowed, where Gwen asks Jack what he will do while she is on her honeymoon and he replies jokingly, "You know, the usual.  Pizza, Ianto, save the world a few times." and they giggle.  I thought it was one of the funniest lines in the episode, and I've made the same sort of joke about my own dear husband of 20 years, but some people found it offensive.  Strange, some of the funniest S1 icons showed Ianto looking at his PDA and finding Jack at the top of his "to-do" list.  But maybe I'm wrong and they're right.  Let's apply a little logic, shall we?

First, there's the question of ordering.  The accusation is made that by putting Ianto on the list after pizza, Ianto is less important to Jack than pizza.  But it's a three object list, not a two object list:  pizza, Ianto, save the world.  So:

If

Jack considers pizza more important than Ianto,

Then

Jack also considers pizza more important than saving the world.

Have we seen any sign that Jack considers pizza more important than saving the world?

Have we seen any sign that Jack considers anything more important than saving the world?

No?

Therefore 

Either Jack thinks a Meat Feast is more important than saving the world or it's a list in ascending order of importance, not descending order of importance.  Good grief.

But that's not the most astonishing accusation.  The one that really knocked me for a loop, that has me more flabbergasted the longer I think about it, was made earlier today on DWF before it crashed that Jack dissed Ianto "Because you don't put someone you love on a to-do list."

What the Hell?

Seriously.  WTH?

People, there is no quicker and more certain route to breakup and/or divorce than not putting spending time with someone you love on your to-do list.  Every marriage counselor around will tell you the same thing:  if you want to keep your relationship alive, you damn well better make your sweetheart a priority no matter how busy you are.

In other words, you put the person you love on your to-do list.

From all we've seen, the Torchwood Team live insanely busy lives.  That Jack is willing to put Ianto on his to-do list right next to saving the world in order of importance says to me that he values their relationship a great deal.

But why am I moaning about double standards?  Because Gwen is criticized for not doing the same thing that Jack is criticized for doing.  Gwen is constantly slammed for not showing enough consideration for Rhys and their relationship.

In other words, Gwen is constantly slammed for not putting the one she loves on her to-do list.

You can't have it both ways.  In this case, something can't be wrong for Jack/Ianto and right for Gwen/Rhys.  Or, to put it logically, one of the following statements must be true and one of them must be false.

Either

Jack is wrong for putting Ianto on his to-do list and Gwen is right for not putting Rhys on her to-do list,

Or

Jack is right for putting Ianto on his to-do list and Gwen is wrong for not putting Rhys on her to-do list.

Which is it?

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goetterdamerung
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:00 pm (UTC)
As far as I am concerned, to maintain any healthy relationship your partner should be on your 'to do' list as often as possible.

Ergo, Jack and Ianto are correct, while Gwen is too busy putting everything else (including Jack) before Rhys, my guess is it will end in divorce before the end of season 3
crabby_lioness
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:04 pm (UTC)
Can we make Martha the leading lady? Pretty please with real whipped cream and a cherry on top?
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fern_knight2012
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:03 pm (UTC)
the second one is (I think anyway) the right one. I, personally, loved that line so I can't see the problem people are having (I think this relationship is now too cannon for its own good).
crabby_lioness
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:08 pm (UTC)
I wonder if they're the same people who think taking a condom on a date makes the sex "predatory" and not "spontaneous". I hate to sound like a fossil, but when I was growing up that was considered plain good manners!
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demotu
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:04 pm (UTC)
Okay, I'm not sure you meant this to be funny, but as someone who chirped "Ianto!" when Gwen asked Jack what he was going to do, and then promptly dissolved into giggles when he actually said it, your logical explanation of it all had me laughing in agreement.

Have we seen any sign that Jack considers pizza more important than saving the world?

This in particular had me snickering in delight.
crabby_lioness
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:05 pm (UTC)
Who said logic was boring? ;)
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ximeria
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:09 pm (UTC)
Here via jackxianto

I've come across this as well and you're not the only one being surprised by it. I have to wonder if it's a UK/US thing -- because every Brit I've talked to about it, finds it absolutely funny, while the Americans I've talked to, consider it a disservice toward Ianto. Me? I'm a Dane, I snorted my coffee when I got to that scene, laughing my head off. The way I see it, it's a Jack thing and if Ianto had heard him say it, he'd probably just have rolled his eyes and come up with the perfect come-back.

I might add I stay on the fringes of the fandom, as do the people I discuss TW and DW with, so the above might just hold true to that fraction of the viewers.

To me it's not a question if Gwen should consciously put Rhys on her to-do list. It's typical Jack's raunchy humour to say something like that, it wouldn't have sounded right coming from Gwen.

But, you know, just my two cent or whatever the currency might be.
crabby_lioness
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:12 pm (UTC)
To me it seems more of an age thing. Older people who have been in long-term relationships tended to laugh and nod their heads.

To me it's not a question if Gwen should consciously put Rhys on her to-do list. It's typical Jack's raunchy humour to say something like that, it wouldn't have sounded right coming from Gwen.

She may not say it quite so bluntly, but she sure needs to do it.
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crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 03:07 am (UTC)
Personally I think the believably flawed characters with their believably flawed relationships are the best part of TW. I would far rather see imperfect people work at their relationships than perfect people sail through life unhindered.
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kiwi_from_hell
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:12 pm (UTC)
Uh, the pizza line was a joke and I think comments either way are reading to much into it. It's a play on "do" to mean shag, and nothing about making Ianto a...chore, or duty, or anything really about relationship responsibilities either. It's a quip.

I would say the difference in the way fandom responds to the two relationships is because the canon says different things about the pairings. For J/I, we have been shown mostly a sexual component to the relationship, hence the pun. Gwen/Rhys is much more emotional and committed, even with their (realistic and adorable) problems. I think you can say something is right for Jack/Ianto when it is wrong for Gwen/Rhys and vice versa, because the couples are not the same.

I don't understand all the Gwen slamming for not putting Rhys first, because that really hasn't been too bad at all this season. The thing with priority management is you can't put one thing on the top and ignore everything else. Rhys may well be her top priority, but what, she should let half of Cardiff die because they haven't had dinner together for a few nights?
crabby_lioness
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:18 pm (UTC)
I don't think it shows Jack belittling his relationship with Ianto, as many have suggested. It's just the kind of joke Jack makes.

I think you can say something is right for Jack/Ianto when it is wrong for Gwen/Rhys and vice versa, because the couples are not the same.

Maybe they're not, but in this case good couple maintenance is the same. And I agree that Gwen has been better portrayed this year, but parts of fandom have still shown a double standard in their complaints.
electrictoes
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:12 pm (UTC)
I think the whole thing was ridiculous anyway, it wasn't remotely offensive and it showed more about their relationship than whether or not Ianto is on Jack's to-do list, the fact that he said it suggests he's quite happy to talk about his relationship with Ianto to other people.

Methinks the fandom's gone a bit mad.

Besides, the bedside manner thing in Sleeper blatantly suggested that Ianto and Gwen have done relationship gossiping/giggling too.

It very much annoys me when people make Ianto out to be super!victim and Jack and Gwen to be evil conspirators against him (slight over dramatics there)

Your reasoning made me giggle very much so, thank you!
mamabeast
Apr. 11th, 2008 12:44 am (UTC)
I think the whole thing was ridiculous anyway, it wasn't remotely offensive and it showed more about their relationship than whether or not Ianto is on Jack's to-do list, the fact that he said it suggests he's quite happy to talk about his relationship with Ianto to other people


i never thought about it that way, that he was talking about Ianto like a partner would..........I'm an American (birth defect, not my fault)so I was a bit put off & thought it was flippant but then i've never been in a LTR so I dont have that mentality
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rihani
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:13 pm (UTC)
(here via jackxianto as well)

People who think putting the one you love on your to-do list is a bad thing? Don't tend to have people to love for very long.

And really, this post had me equally laughing and nodding in agreement. Besides, best line ever, don't make it into drama, people!! :-)
crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 03:55 am (UTC)
People who think putting the one you love on your to-do list is a bad thing? Don't tend to have people to love for very long.

Amen!
sarcasticchick
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:14 pm (UTC)
I choose C) Jack is right for putting Ianto on his to-do list and Jack is wrong for not putting fire Gwen on his to-do list.

Er, I guess that wasn't really the debate, eh?
rihani
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:21 pm (UTC)
No, but I like your answer. :-)
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atticlibrarian
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:21 pm (UTC)
I didn't have so much a problem with the line nor with the presence of the laugh/giggle just the nature of that laugh/giggle, if that makes any sense. I think the fact that Ianto was on that list at all should mean something to all us shippers out there.

On a possibly contradictory note, both Jack and Ianto are very private people especially when it comes to emotions and serious relationships. Whatever their relationship is I don't think they want the rest of the team to see it as anything other than physical. The only reason I mention this is because from what I can recall any mention of their relationship outside of just the two of them doesn't talk about the emotional level of their relationship, only the physical.

And yes please Bring Back Martha!
nightspring
Apr. 11th, 2008 02:36 am (UTC)
Hm, that may be the general rule, but I'd argue there is an exception, and that is between Ianto and Owen. (We never did get to see Jack and Owen discuss the Jack/Ianto relationship -- too bad!) Once in S1 and once in S2, Owen makes remarks suggesting that the relationship between Jack and Ianto is superficial/purely physical, and in both instances Ianto retorts with statements refuting Owen's perception, and IMO, implying that there is more depth to his relationship with Jack than Owen gives credit for. (I'm more than a teaboy -- Jack needs me. It's not like that, me and Jack.)
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crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 04:06 am (UTC)
Exactly.
finksgirl
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:30 pm (UTC)
Thank you for finally putting that down into words. My exact thoughts on the subject.

cinderlily
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:37 pm (UTC)
My love for your icon is OMG! at 11. <3

Rhys is so flippin adorable it HURTS!
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ceresi
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:32 pm (UTC)
I'm just amused that anyone thinks Jack actually knows what's on his own to-do list. Or that he even has one. Obviously, he just asks Ianto. Also, I lol at the belief that Gwen is neglecting Rhys. Did you see the way they were sleeping in Fragments? Someone's been 69ing. . . .
adafrog
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:37 pm (UTC)
I'm just amused that anyone thinks Jack actually knows what's on his own to-do list. Or that he even has one. Obviously, he just asks Ianto.
lol So very true. I'm sure Jack really has no idea.
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adafrog
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:32 pm (UTC)
Wow, good for you for logically discussing this. I never thought Jack was dissing Ianto (unless he really just meant *do* Ianto, and not be with Ianto. Although, if he felt that way, then he could get laid anywhere).
ETA: Also, nothing is more important than pizza.

Edited at 2008-04-10 11:38 pm (UTC)
crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 04:15 am (UTC)
Thank you for reading it.
(Deleted comment)
crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 04:42 am (UTC)
I get the impression he hasn't allowed anyone into his heart for decades, and that is why he's taking it slow. I thoroughly approve.
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cinderlily
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:36 pm (UTC)
On my to do list, no joke, number 1 every single day is, "Timm". We are getting married in thirty days and you know what? It is the most important thing on my life. Though I think Jack was saying it in just the "We like to shag" joke type of way, I think it is oddly sweet.

And really? The last person on the show who has her relationship on straight would be Gwen. I think she is an interesting character but dear LORD the woman has no sense of what a relationship should really be.
adafrog
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:39 pm (UTC)
Congrats!
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swordznsorcery
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:38 pm (UTC)
It was just a joke. A throwaway line that wasn't supposed to mean anything at all. There's no deeper meaning; you're just supposed to laugh and then put it aside. As for the people finding fault with it... well, seems to me they find fault with just about everything. Ignore them. Laugh at the jokes, and be glad that you're having more fun than they are. ;)
crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 05:11 am (UTC)
Exactly.
antelope_writes
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:42 pm (UTC)
You know, it's canon that Rhys thinks Gwen isn't paying enough attention to their relationship. (Adrift, Meat, Combat, etc) The thing about Rhys, though, is that he's enough of a grownup to call out Gwen on her crap, and has been since at least Ghost Machine.

I thought the line about pizza, Ianto, and saving the world was sweet and very funny, especially considering Ianto cut in to dance with Jack shortly after (and the look on Gwen's face was just priceless there).

My personal take on the matter is that the folks whining and complaining haven't been around a really playful couple. They're serious when they need to be, but when they don't need to be, they're laughing. Usually together. Whether it's laughing about cheating at sex games or laughing at speaking ill of the dead (that was a really funny line) or about pheromones and pterodactyls and chocolate, they're laughing. It doesn't mean they don't take their relationship seriously, because clearly they do, it just means that they take a lot of joy and pleasure in each other. Rhys and Gwen aren't like that, and that's just fine. Not everybody is. But to suggest that they aren't serious as a couple because they laugh and joke with one another is just silly.
sazzat
Apr. 11th, 2008 12:43 am (UTC)
A big thumbs up and high five to everything you said =)
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gypsylady
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:42 pm (UTC)
Tell you the truth, I didn't find JACK'S part in that conversation all that offensive. But Gwen giggling, that bugged me. Jack seemed to be just acknowledging that he has Ianto in his life. Gwen seemed to think this was giggle-worthy.

I happen to like Gwen as a character. It still annoyed the hell out of me.
crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 05:18 am (UTC)
Gwen giggles whenever she's happy.
china_white
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:49 pm (UTC)
I saw the line as a cute joke and nothing more. I thought it was lovely and very in character.

I suppose I shouldn't be so surprised that so many people did take offense to it. We're all different, I guess.

Edited at 2008-04-10 11:50 pm (UTC)
crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 05:19 am (UTC)
Cute, lovely and in character. Who could ask for anything more?
cowboyhd
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:51 pm (UTC)
It's a joke, simple as that. No one should be digging around to find any special meaning in it.

On the ordering, again, it's a joke. When you make unexpected jokes, you have to lead with normal stuffs first. If he puts Ianto before pizza, it wouldn't have as much impact as putting pizza first to throw people off.

I'm gonna pull double standard of my own and say that the joke would be some what disrespectful if Ianto is a woman, still I wouldn't get way too sensitive on it. I think some people forget that this is 2 guys, 2 naughty guys to add to that, so we shouldn't hold the same standard and expect Jack to treat Ianto like a lady.
an_lagat_glas
Apr. 10th, 2008 11:58 pm (UTC)
A+ icon : D
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morebliss
Apr. 11th, 2008 12:02 am (UTC)
If it's true that the order was ascending, then Pizza's the only one who has the right to be annoyed. Won't anyone take Pizza's feelings into consideration? He's probably cutting himself into smaller and smaller pieces. Poor emo Pizza.
crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 12:07 am (UTC)
I'm sure Mrs. Pac-Man will comfort him.
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lefaym
Apr. 11th, 2008 12:14 am (UTC)
Yup, I just saw it as a cute joke; I didn't even think he was putting those thing in order of importance, I just thought he was being funny, and enjoying the fact that he can be open about whatever it is that he's got going on with Ianto-- I mean, his smile after that is a happy smile-- it's partly a laugh, but it's not a "laughting-at-Ianto" laugh, it's a laugh that says "I'm making this joke because I'm happy with how things are."
crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 05:26 am (UTC)
I think that scene, especially when he's dancing with Ianto, is the happiest we've ever seen him.
ladybubblegum
Apr. 11th, 2008 12:14 am (UTC)
First--I totally agree with you on all points. Fandom kinda read too much into the "to-do list" line. It was a cute, throwaway line that was only supposed to get a giggle (which it did).

But, I think I understand why some people took it wrong. Traditionally, to-do lists are written out, and full of chores (go to the store, clean the windows, pick up the kids from school). And usually, if we write a to-do list, it's because we may not remember to do those things on our own (we're afraid of forgetting, so we write it down as a list we can consult throughout the day). If a person wanted to read into the line, they would probably come to the conclusion that spending time with Ianto is a chore that Jack might forget to do. Hense, the torches and pitchforks.

But that's a stretch. I think we should take the line as the joke it was written to be. ^.^;;

Very insightful post!
crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 12:27 am (UTC)
Unfortunately, spending time with one's mate is something people forget to do all the time. As I said, it's the leading cause of breakup/divorse.

When you value that person, you make the effort to spend time with them. If that means writing them on your to-do list, good for you if you do that. Better than forgetting them altogether.
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illiriahrising
Apr. 11th, 2008 12:22 am (UTC)
I think that the majority of people who had a problem with that line had a problem with it because they saw it as a trivialization of whatever relationship Jack and Ianto may have because it was delivered so flippantly. It could be seen as Jack just being playful and irreverant but it could also be seen to harken back a little to when Owen saw Ianto as nothing more than Jack's would-be "part-time shag". I think that a lot of people didn't like the idea of Jack making light of his relationship with Ianto. They didn't like him making it sound like he was just screwing Ianto rather than having an actual emotional relationship with him.

The fact that it was said just before the (horribly directed moment) when Jack and Gwen are staring longingly at each other and don't even hear Ianto asking to cut in, just made some people that much more annoyed with the line.

And while I agree that when you are involved with someone you have to make time with them a priority and putting them on your "to-do" list as it were is important, I think that when most people hear someone say they are going to "do someone" they don't automatically think they mean spending quality time emotionally connecting with thier partner. "Doing someone" tends to have a less than emotional connotation. Usually that term is applied to a relationship that is based more on sex than emotional connection and I think that was why people got annoyed with the line.

Personally I think the line was there to be amusing and quippy and the writers never intended for anyone to get upset about it or get into debates about it. It seems pretty clear to me that Jack values Ianto as a person in his own right and as a romantic partner-he trusts him with things he doesn't trust anyone else with as we saw in Adrift- so I think the issue of whether Jack's comment meant he just saw Ianto as his sexy bit on the side is resolved now. Jack and Ianto clearly have a connection that goes beyond just sex.
crabby_lioness
Apr. 11th, 2008 05:30 am (UTC)
Jack doesn't talk about anything important to him easily. Why should anyone expect him to change the habit of a (going on two centuries long) lifetime?
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