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I got tired of arguing these points all over the internet, and I thought I would collect them here.

Part 1:  Review of S2 09

Jack Is Going to Hurt Ianto, I Know It!

Well, yes.  There have never been two people in any passionate relationship who didn't end up hurting each other sometime.  That said, there is nothing currently going on in their relationship that guarantees future heartbreak.

Their Relationship Has Been Stalled Since the Third Episode

We were told we'd get a "slow burn".  Let's see what we've got so far:

Ep 1 -- Jack tries to hook back up with Ianto, Ianto sets boundaries.

Ep 2 -- Ianto teases Jack in private without Jack teasing back.  He also puts Jack down in public without fear of retaliation.

Ep 3 -- Ianto questions Jack. When satisfied with the answer, Ianto kisses him.

Ep 4 -- Jack can't keep his eyes off Ianto most of the time he's not busy, something that continues through Episode 9 at least.  Ianto and Jack show signs of being in a renewed sexual relationship.  Jack asks Ianto in public if Jack deserves to be put down by someone else for something Jack did.

Ep 5 -- Jack shows how much he cares for Ianto by helping prove Ianto isn't a murderer. Ianto confesses to Jack that meeting Jack is one of the biggest events of his life. Jack kisses Ianto.

Ep 6 -- Jack and Ianto both discuss their relationship with someone else for the first time, Jack's close friend Martha. Mention of role-playing is made.

Ep 7 -- What do they do with a hockey stick?

Ep 8 -- Ianto defends their relationship to Owen as being not just about shagging.

Ep 9 -- They flirt together when alone, ending the flirting when Owen enters the room. Ianto mentions past personal conversations they've had. Ianto teases Jack in the SUV in front of Owen. Ianto dances with Jack in public.

Looks to me like they've gradually been getting more open and comfortable with each other all series. What else would you call that besides a "slow burn"? 

They Don't Kiss Enough.

They've already kissed more than they did in all of S1, and we've still got 4 episodes to go.

They Should Have As Many Bedroom Scenes As the Straight Couples.

Have you noticed that we only get a bedroom scene in an episode where something happens to threaten that couple's relationship?  Do you want more threats to Jack and Ianto's relationship?  I'd like to see some pillow-tussling too, but keep that correlation in mind.

Jack's Relationships With Men Are Only Casual, While His Relationships With Women Are Serious.

Jack appears to have had more relationships with men than with women.  Jack appears to only talk willingly about his casual relationships.   Therefore, Jack has probably had more casual relationships with men than with women.  However, the above statement is going one assumption too far.


Ianto Loves Jack More Than Jack Loves Ianto

Maybe, but remember that we're talking about two very emotionally damaged people.  Jack apparently helped Ianto recover from what happened to him in S1.  Now Jack has to recover not only from the events of the Valiant, but from the 100 years he spent in an emotional limbo waiting for the Doctor to "fix" him.   That's a lot of damage.  My impression is that Jack loves Ianto to the full extent that he is currently capable of loving anyone, and Jack wants very much to love Ianto more as soon as Jack is able to.

Ianto Acts Like a Doormat/Spineless Puppy Around Jack

In all but two instances over two years, Ianto has been shown as being totally in control of this relationship.  He initiates their encounters, he sets the boundaries, he plays and teases Jack but Jack doesn't play and tease Ianto.  He puts Jack down in public.  He's the one Jack turns to and asks if Jack deserves to be put down in public.  That doesn't sound like a whipped puppy to me.  That sounds more like the top dog.   Does the man have to start carrying a riding crop before people get the picture? 

That Just Proves That Ianto is Codependent/In a Dysfunctional Relationship

Not necessarily.  Power inequalities are a fact of life in certain circumstances, and this is one of them. Professionally and in terms of age and experience, Jack has boatloads more power than Ianto. I think it's commendable that he compensates for this by allowing Ianto most of the power in their still-developing personal relationship

Jack Wants to Sleep With Gwen.

Yes he does, but he's smart enough not to actually do it.  Jack may talk like he thinks with his balls, but that's not the way he acts.

Jack's Relationship With Gwen is Wrong and Hurts Ianto.

I'm really uncomfortable talking about this one because I have a confession to make.  I don't see what Jack is doing wrong.  The reason I don't see it is because I had the same sort of relationships with other people in college while I was dating my husband-to-be.

There were men and a woman whom I fell in love with in college but whom I never once made a move on.  One was already in a long-term committed relationship, and I had too much respect for both people to wish to disturb them.  Another had the same personality flaws as I did, and we would only have exaggerated each others' bad periods.  Another -- just wouldn't have worked out.

We were good friends but we would have been terrible lovers.  That's not to say we wouldn't have had a few good sexual encounters, but at that level we would have crashed and burned eventually.  So I sighed and pined and said nothing about my crushes, and 20 years later I'm still close friends with all but one of them.  But if I had had to attend one of their weddings at an emotionally vulnerable time in my personal life, as Jack is at now, I don't think I would have acted any differently.  I only hope I would have behaved that well.  As it was, when one of them told me about an life-changing event that happened several years ago when I was feeling down, I felt as if the ground had opened up beneath me and swallowed me whole.  I quickly rallied and congratulated him, but a small selfish part of me didn't like it at all, even though I had been happily married for several years and my husband was standing right beside me. 

Oh yeah, my husband?  Same guy I was dating all those years ago when I was having those other crushes.  Far from being a "doormat" he's the biggest Alpha Male I've ever met in my life, big enough not to be threatened by my crushes on other people, wise enough to realize it was something I had to work through for reasons not connected to him, and smart enough to know that me comparing him with other people whom I also had strong feelings for but who were less-than-compatible only pointed out how perfectly compatible the two of us were and what a prize catch he was.  Was he hurt by them?  No, he says.   It was something I had to work through, and the person he got at the end was worth the wait.  Were my crushes an inevitable sign that I couldn't stay faithful to him, that I would leave him, and that our relationship would end in tears?  This year will be our 20th wedding anniversary, so that would be "No."

But this isn't just my story.  I've heard variations of it from real people many times over the years, albeit there's often more sex involved.  It's not that uncommon.  So Jack crushing on Gwen without sleeping with her and loving and sleeping with Ianto doesn't seem  that absolutely terrible.  It seems more like a phase Jack's going through while working on opening up his heart enough to love Ianto more than he already loves him.  Does it mean heartbreak for Ianto?  Maybe, but not neccessarily.  We'll have to wait and see. 

RTD Should Only Show Healthy Gay Relationships Between Healthy People.

RTD is a master storyteller.  He knows that stories about broken people trying to piece their life together grab the audience far more than stories about healthy people cruising through life in a cloud of bliss.

That said, Ianto and Jack look like they've got a pretty healthy relationship.  Personally they're both messed up six ways from Sunday, but it seems to me like they're taking great care not to mess up what they have going on between them. 

Frankly, I think it's far more responsible of him to show that messed-up people (i.e. ordinary people) can have healthy relationships than to show that only healthy people can have healthy relationships.

 

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Comments

( 273 comments — Leave a comment )
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dancy_dreamer
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:07 am (UTC)
Jack Is Going to Hurt Ianto, I Know It!

Well, yes. That would be the problem with dating an immortal wouldn't it?
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:10 am (UTC)
Immortal, shimmortal, that's the problem with dating anyone.
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neth_dugan
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:14 am (UTC)
*claps*
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 03:53 am (UTC)
*bows*
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amathyst_eyes
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:16 am (UTC)
Does the man have to start carrying a riding crop before people get the picture?
He may not have to, but still, I wouldn't object...

RTD Should Only Show Healthy Gay Relationships Between Healthy People.
There isn't a single relationship or person on this show that is really healthy, whether they be gay, straight, bi, omnisexual, whatever. Look at Gwen's relationship with Rhys! She drugs him with an amnesia pill, has an affair with Owen, and there is (or, hopefully, was) some sort of Jack/Gwen/Rhys triangle going on. And Tosh and Owen, not exactly the perfect relationship there, either!

They're all screwed-up, just like real people are all screwed up. But they're working on it, things are improving for everyone. And really, I think Jack and Ianto's relationship is the "healthiest" of them all, if we have to make comparisons. Besides, perfect relationships and people are boring. :D
sarahh1278
Mar. 9th, 2008 03:11 am (UTC)
You know, when I was thinking about this issue the other day, I came to the same conclusion. The relationship between Jack and Ianto probably *is* the healthiest of all of them.
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chughes1147
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:16 am (UTC)
I 100% agree with everything you just said. Thanks for writing this!

It's really nice to see constructive arguments being made to balance out other people's opinions. Especially when fans are arguing about Torchwood left right and center at the mo.
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 04:59 am (UTC)
Thank you for reading it!
demotu
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:17 am (UTC)
I think I love you. And I have been steering clear of intense Janto discussion in the wake of 2x09 because I think they're relationship is portrayed awesomely, so I've been feeling a little like a minority. Thanks for articulating a lot of my thoughts!

I'd also add: that we see comfortable domesticity in their relationship rather than dramatic scenes or sex implies their relationship is stronger than most of the other ones we've seen in TW.
amathyst_eyes
Mar. 9th, 2008 03:38 am (UTC)
that we see comfortable domesticity in their relationship rather than dramatic scenes or sex implies their relationship is stronger than most of the other ones we've seen in TW.

Excellent point. We already know they're having sex, that was the first thing we learned about their relationship, so seeing them in bed wouldn't change anything. And I don't think the fact that we've never seen them in bed detracts from the relationship, rather I think their relationship is probably the best-portrayed and possibly even the most-intimate that we have on the show.
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sazzat
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:18 am (UTC)
I loved reading this :) I have nothing to add really because you said it all.

crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:17 am (UTC)
Thank you. :)
inthekeyofd
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:24 am (UTC)
Have you noticed that we only get a bedroom scene in an episode where something happens to threaten that couple's relationship? Do you want more threats to Jack and Ianto's relationship? I'd like to see some pillow-tussling too, but keep that correlation in mind.

I never thought about it, but you are so right!!


crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:18 am (UTC)
I know, I only noticed it when writing this. Scary, isn't it?
adelle79
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:26 am (UTC)
Thank you. My god, my friend just saw Something Borrowed and I had to listen to her rail away at Jack for being a such a bastard. I could barely even get a word in edgewise to say that it is Ianto he "goes home to". You bring up so many good points, so many that I have seen before, but which no one else gets.

I guess I just mean to say it brightened my day to see a commentary on the Janto relationship that I wholeheartedly agree with.
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:20 am (UTC)
Thank youfor reading it.
fodian
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:31 am (UTC)
YES.
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:21 am (UTC)
Thank you.
bm_shipper
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:42 am (UTC)
I can agree with you in nearly everything, besides: I for myself don't think Jack REALLY wants to sleep with Gwen...

I like to compare him with "Brian Kinney" from queer as folk, even if you shouldn't compare 2 so different characters, I know, but in some ways, they are NOT so different...

And Brian has this "big love" (even if most Brian/Justin fans would kill me for saying so), Michael... he knows him more than half of his life, they share something so special, they love each other deeply and endlessly, but they never had sex, never will have... Michael wanted it some time, Brian rejected him, Brian wanted it about 2 times, Michael rejected him, because both knew it wouldn't have been right there and then... and the "not sleeping with each other" makes it so fucking special to me...

Because they both have their partners, they both are REALLY happy with them, but that doesn't mean they can't love each other, that doesn't mean they can't care for each other and that also doesn't mean they can't love their partners either or it's less special...

every love is different and well... like I don't think Jack WANTS to sleep with Gwen, I in Queer as Folk don't think Brian WANTED to sleep with Michael, because what they have is so special and Sex would have maybe destroyed everything...

But that's just me thinking like this :P
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:23 am (UTC)
That sort of thing happens more in real life than people talk about.
euphorazine
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:45 am (UTC)
*slow clap of the non-sarcastic variety* And I'm not trying to wank my way out of an unfavourable situation, this was honestly my gut reaction. Thank you.
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:28 am (UTC)
Thank you for reading it.
celebrian_lotr
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:46 am (UTC)
Ianto Acts Like a Doormat/Spineless Puppy Around Jack

Couldn´t have put it better regarding that point myself! It is exactly what I see.
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:31 am (UTC)
It's probably the most overt thing about their relationship.
justdreaming88
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:46 am (UTC)
Very good analysis. Of course at some point Jack is going to hurt Ianto and probably the other way round too.
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:34 am (UTC)
It's as inevitable as the tide. But then, it's that way in every relationship.
(Deleted comment)
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:37 am (UTC)
Either that, or Hart to Hart is about to roll the credits. ;)
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blackbird_song
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:49 am (UTC)
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!! I'm so with you on this. Your penultimate section (Jack's Relationship With Gwen is Wrong and Hurts Ianto) reflects my past in certain ways, as well. It's very common. I saw Jack's sadness/wistfulness at the wedding as something like the way I've felt at weddings when a door closes, and doors close in droves at weddings. (That isn't limited to possibilities of sexual relationships, either. Everything changes when one gets married, including just faffing off with one's friends.) One of the most uncomfortable experiences I ever had was when a dear friend of mine got married to a woman I thought was perfect for him. When we said goodbye to each other at the end of the night, he snogged me passionately, which was the first time that I'd ever felt he'd crossed a line. To my mind, even though we had done that quite a lot during the previous years and I am not a prude about snogging, that goodbye kiss should have been shorter. I was grateful that my then-boyfriend, now-husband didn't interfere, and that my friend's new wife didn't make a fuss, but I almost wish that I'd had a Ianto to cut in, right about then.

In any event, years later, they're still together and strong, despite many seriously hard times, and my husband and I are also still trying to make a go of it. What you say about this makes perfect sense, and I do wish that we actually saw more of this sort of thing in literature and on television. I can't help but think that if we weren't fed quite so much idealized fiction, we'd be a better-adjusted society. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with some of that in our entertainment diet, but I do think that one can be overexposed to it and feel that all love/life/work/war/insert-situation-here should go in a prescribed way. When we expect that, and it doesn't happen, we seem ill-equipped to handle it. As patchy as Torchwood can be, I'm so grateful to the show for giving us deeply flawed, damaged, imperfect people to love.

Needless to say, I couldn't possibly agree with you more strongly about your last point. My biggest worry is that if what we're hearing about TW not having a story/character bible of sorts is true, the writers and producers may lose their focus and give us something clichéd or totally out of keeping with what they've already set up. Of course, that is a worry in any good show, and we've all been disappointed that way time and again by other series. It may well be perverse, but I think one of the reasons there's so much angst over all of this is that TW has improved in so many ways that the disappointment would be even greater if they screw it up. The higher it goes, the harder the fall from grace, and all that.

In any event, your post is going into my memories, and I'm getting more and more tempted to ask if I can friend you. Thank you very much for such a clear-headed and generous post.

Catherine
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:41 am (UTC)
I'm so grateful to the show for giving us deeply flawed, damaged, imperfect people to love.

Deeply flawed people who are nonetheless trying their best to do the right thing. That's what keeps me watching.

In any event, your post is going into my memories, and I'm getting more and more tempted to ask if I can friend you.

Thank you, and go right ahead.
qaffangyrl
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:53 am (UTC)
Bravo. Great commentary. I couldn't have said it better myself. I especially like your sharing of your personal story. And I think that RTD DOES NOT have a "responsiblity" to be a mouthpiece for ideal gay relationships. If he's making any point at all with this show it's that gender is immaterial. Which is honestly how i wish more people felt. Like JB has said himself, people don't use STRAIGHT as a label for male actors who have female companions...i.e. "straight actor, Brad Pitt." He's just Brad and he happens to be with Angelina. John is not "gay actor John Barrowman." He's just John who HAPPENS to have a male partner, Scott.

I wish people would make less of a deal about Jack/Ianto being a m/m relationship.

In the end..despite Torchwood being a sci-fi show it's still VERY MUCH a soap opera...as is most of RTDs style of story telling. It'd get boring if it was all happy all the time. AND PLEASE...anyone in a fandom like this has to be a little bit of an angst whore so what are we getting so upset about anyway...we're getting excactly what we crave. And that's worrying about our fav boys. LOL!
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:46 am (UTC)
Torchwood is a science-fiction/superhero soap opera that occassionally tries to be a Grand Opera, and that's why I love it.
stargazer60
Mar. 9th, 2008 01:55 am (UTC)
This is such a great analysis....

I've been up and down emotionally since I watched 2x09 (twice in one night hoping the second viewing would make me feel better...)...and this just has reassured me.....


...that things between Jack & Ianto aren't as thinly stretched as perhaps I thought they are.

Thanks for giving me a whole lot more to digest....
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:47 am (UTC)
Thank you for reading.
frenzied
Mar. 9th, 2008 02:01 am (UTC)
Thank you so much for this post.

I've seen so many people objecting to Jack's response to Gwen's question about what he's going to do while she's away.. 'pizza. ianto. save the world a few times' .. because the word 'doing' wasn't sweet enough or something.

.. but they're guys. I can't quite picture Ianto doing this, but it is Jack- I'm sure he burps aloud when he's had too much Coke, and scratches his balls when he pads around the hub in his boxers. lord knows we all know how much John loves a fart joke. So... men. you know? Doing ianto? no big. hell. i'd say that if someone asked what i was goign to do over the weekend and i was feeling a bit saucy.

kita0610
Mar. 9th, 2008 03:36 am (UTC)
No one mentioned that saving the world also came after pizza. AND Ianto. Which proves that surely Jack cares more about pizza than humanity!
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kaysm95
Mar. 9th, 2008 02:03 am (UTC)
Thank you! I have been avoiding many of the comments because of all this. I agree with almost all that you've said.
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:49 am (UTC)
Thank you for reading it.
siouxieq
Mar. 9th, 2008 02:06 am (UTC)
Well said!!

The only place I deviate from your view is that I think Jack is in love with the idea of Gwen, not Gwen herself - and I think Gwen has elevated Jack (as an idea -not the person) to almost religious status which means that she can at once long for him but still have Rhys - (like any good Christian wife)

And if (or when) Jack ends up hurting Ianto, that's just fodder for some great hurt/comfort fics - so we win either way.
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:55 am (UTC)
Whatever their feelings for each other are, Jack has never been willing to act on them and Gwen has come round to the same view.
fajrdrako
Mar. 9th, 2008 02:08 am (UTC)
Jack and Ianto - part 1
I like this post very much. Largely because I have been reading the comments you refer to - from people unhappy with the Jack/Ianto relationship as it stands - thinking things like "WTF?" and "Are they watching the same show I am?" And mostly I think: "These people don't understand Jack in the slightest. Don't they have any notion of what it's like to be polyamorous and/or omnisexual?"

Well: probably not.

"Jack is going to hurt Ianto" - Why on Earth? I think Jack has shown every concern for Ianto's feelings, including reassuring him that he won't just leave him, and showing that he's willing and able to court Ianto on Ianto's 21st century terms - a date, a dance at a wedding, and so on. Jack isn't sleeping with other people. Jack is being loving and considerate to Ianto. I don't see Ianto having any trouble with their situation - my impression, when he told Martha about it, was that he was pretty damn happy with their arrangements as they stand. Proud of the relationship and comfortable with it.

"Stalled" - I'm not even sure what that means. We don't (sadly) get to see what they do together in bed, but since they both seem happy with it, it doesn't look stalled to me! They're happy enough to tease each other verbally.

"They don't kiss enough" - True. I would be happy to have a show with Jack and Ianto kissing most of the time, every episode. I'm a voyeur that way. And I'd like the interludes in which they are not kissing to be filled with hugs, cuddling, groping and acts of sex between them. Realistically, we're not going to get this: this is what our imaginations are for.

"Jack's Relationships With Men Are Only Casual, While His Relationships With Women Are Serious" - I'd say this is just flat out wrong, and those who say it aren't paying attention. I think we don't generally hear about Jack's more casual flings with women because they don't want him to look like a seducer and abuser of women. (I would cite the Chula starship captain as a potential counter-example.)

Of what we've seen - I'd say the most serious love Jack has ever had is his love of the Doctor; and that there was nothing casual on any level about his love for the original Captain Jack Harkness. His love for Ianto, however serious or otherwise, is far from 'casual' by any definition of the word that I know.

crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 05:59 am (UTC)
Re: Jack and Ianto - part 1
Don't they have any notion of what it's like to be polyamorous and/or omnisexual?

I don't know if it's a polyamorous and/or omnisexual thing or just an all-round human being thing.
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fajrdrako
Mar. 9th, 2008 02:09 am (UTC)
Jack and Ianto, part 2
[Sorry, I had too much to say for one message! Bad me!]

"Ianto Loves Jack More Than Jack Loves Ianto" - I see no value in measuring love by the teaspoon. (Or the stopwatch. Or the measuring tape.) Nor do I understand by what criteria anyone can do the measuring and judging. Jack's love is warm and deep and caring. That's enough for me. From what we see, it's enough for Ianto, too.

"Ianto Acts Like a Doormat/Spineless Puppy Around Jack" - I don't see that! Maybe they're watching a different show?

"That Just Proves That Ianto is Codependent/In a Dysfunctional Relationship" - Looks perfectly functional to me! Jack has brought Ianto from depression and loneliness to a sense of self-worth, renewed confidence, and a joy of life. Ianto has in return given Jack comfort and laughter and a relief from loneliness. I can't see a problem there.

"Jack Wants to Sleep With Gwen" - Of course he does. Jack in not monogamous, never has been. Never pretended to be. He likes Gwen. He has never had sex with her, and as things stand now, never will. So - why is this a bad thing?

"Jack's Relationship With Gwen is Wrong and Hurts Ianto" - Judgmental, hmm? Jack's relationship with Gwen is sexy and sexlesss and sweet and considerate, and Ianto doesn't look the least bit hurt by it to me. Might as well say his relationship with Tosh is hurting Ianto, or his relationship with Owen - they're two more people he loves and isn't having sex with.

What these fans are saying is that if they were in Ianto's place, Jack's affection for Gwen would be hurting them. Well, they aren't in Ianto's place, and it's just as well - obviously.

"RTD Should Only Show Healthy Gay Relationships Between Healthy People" - Different people have different types of relationships: how can you judge Jack's standards of a healthy relationship? Or Ianto's? Storytelling is not about non-events. Storytelling is about conflict and caring and change and challenge. Just like real life.

Any why hold gay relationships to a different standard than straight relationships? That would be utterly unfair.
euphorazine
Mar. 9th, 2008 03:07 am (UTC)
Re: Jack and Ianto, part 2
And mostly I think: "These people don't understand Jack in the slightest. Don't they have any notion of what it's like to be polyamorous and/or omnisexual?"

To go even further, I don't think his omnisexuality necessarily affects this situation too much. Anyone could find themselves in this situation, and I'm not entirely sure I'd act any different even though I'm not (apparently, so far) polyamorous or omnisexual.

And maybe Jack's judgement has been a little off recently (and who can blame him, when he cares so deeply for his team), but I can't for the life of me see Jack as a user. Sure, in his con-man past he perhaps used his sexuality to manipulate people, but the Doctor reminded him that he was a better man. What can he want from Ianto other than, well, Ianto? I always saw Jack as someone who would treat even the most meaningless, short-lived fling with the utmost respect. I don't think he would be interested in bedding a 'doormat' - where's the fun in that?

Edited at 2008-03-09 03:25 am (UTC)
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Re: Jack and Ianto, part 2 - toxictattoo - Mar. 9th, 2008 03:45 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Jack and Ianto, part 2 - fajrdrako - Mar. 9th, 2008 04:16 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Jack and Ianto, part 2 - crabby_lioness - Mar. 9th, 2008 06:01 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Jack and Ianto, part 2 - fajrdrako - Mar. 9th, 2008 01:23 pm (UTC) - Expand
bobojaj
Mar. 9th, 2008 02:24 am (UTC)
BRILLIANT.
To be honest with you, laying out all the claims and proof just makes me more optimistic for these two. Their relationship is one that I'm interested in because it IS so real--they both are messed up, so their relationship isn't perfect, and I doubt it ever will be. A happily ever after couple eventually gets boring, because theres too much predictability. As much as I may bitch at times about events on the show, I know that it all makes sense in the end. Complex story lines are what make good television, right?
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 06:06 am (UTC)
I don't see much point in watching perfect people sail through life. I want to see believably flawed people strive to do the best they can.
queixo
Mar. 9th, 2008 02:26 am (UTC)
thank you
i just watched 9 today cos i wanted to give it my full attention. and my best friend pointed out something to me a couple weeks ago about the jack/gwen, jack/ianto dynamic that i thought could be added to what you said.
jack is from a different time. a time where people arent as hung up on labels and who they sleep with/love as we are now. that said jack can love both gwen and ianto without it being wrong. what his time living through the 20th century taught him is to respect the relationship gwen has with rhys so even though he wants to have a more than a platonic relationship with her he wont. that doesnt degrade what he feels for ianto at all though.

so i definitely appreciate what you've done here with this analysis.
thank you.
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 02:34 am (UTC)
Re: thank you
I'm not sure it's a future-dependent sort of relationship. Platonic romantic friendships were far more common before modern birth control came around than they are today. The reason they currently seem so rare is a direct result of the "If you love someone you should shag them" attitude of the late-20th and early-21st Centuries. If anything, public acknowledgement of them seems to be increasing. Sure, you can have sex with just about anyone without getting pregnant or an STD, but that doesn't mean you won't end up emotionally hurt if you try it.
Re: thank you - queixo - Mar. 9th, 2008 02:46 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: thank you - crabby_lioness - Mar. 9th, 2008 06:08 am (UTC) - Expand
(Anonymous)
Mar. 9th, 2008 02:34 am (UTC)
Well,I hae been all over the place about this...
but finally settled back to my own previous view of Ianto: He's neither a fool nor a doormat and if Jack pisses him off Jack will know about it. If Ianto's happy, and there's no hint that he isn't, then everything is fine. It took me a bit to get here, because I saw two marriages being blown to smithereens by a similar "platonic" situation, so there was personal baggage I was putting into this that didn't belong here.

That being said, has anyone noticed the number of John Hart/Ianto fics suddenly out there? OK, nobody admires Captain Cheekbones more than I do, but he is an unredeemed psychopath. Putting Ianto into a situation where he sleeps with him to spite Jack... Lordamercy.
crabby_lioness
Mar. 9th, 2008 02:36 am (UTC)
Re: Well,I hae been all over the place about this...
While they do have a sizzling chemistry, that chemistry is better off sizzling than consummated.
Re: Well,I have been all over the place about this... - (Anonymous) - Mar. 9th, 2008 04:31 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Well,I have been all over the place about this... - (Anonymous) - Mar. 9th, 2008 04:53 am (UTC) - Expand
Re: Well,I have been all over the place about this... - (Anonymous) - Mar. 9th, 2008 05:02 am (UTC) - Expand
I don't write fan-fiction, and this is just a vague hunch.... - (Anonymous) - Mar. 9th, 2008 03:52 pm (UTC) - Expand
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